Dr. Leo Damasco and Phoebe Gutierrez explore HBO’s The Pitt, a raw depiction of emergency room chaos, and connect its portrayal of physician burnout to the growing shift toward telemedicine. They discuss how the show’s insights into ER stress highlight telemedicine’s role in offering doctors a sustainable career path.
Dr. Leo Damasco and Phoebe Gutierrez unpack the HBO series The Pitt, which vividly captures the high-stakes, high-stress world of emergency medicine. Through the lens of the show’s hour-long ER shifts, they discuss the emotional and physical toll of relentless trauma cases, bureaucratic burdens, and the constant fight-or-flight mentality that drives physician burnout. Dr. Leo, a former ER doctor, reflects on how The Pitt mirrors real-life experiences and explains why many ER physicians are turning to telemedicine for better hours, less stress, and renewed professional fulfillment. This episode connects the show’s stark realities to the transformative potential of telemedicine for physicians seeking to redefine their careers.
Key Takeaways
About the Show
Telemedicine Talks navigates the evolving world of digital health, offering physicians insights into regulatory changes, career transitions, and opportunities in telemedicine to enhance their practice and well-being.
About the Hosts
Dr. Leo Damasco – Pediatrician and former emergency medicine physician turned telemedicine advocate, guiding doctors through the shift to virtual care.
Phoebe Gutierrez – Former state regulator and telehealth executive, specializing in compliance and sustainable virtual care models.
Connect with Phoebe Gutierrez
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pkgutierrez/
Email: phoebe@telemedicinetalks.com (mailto:phoebe@telemedicinetalks.com)
[00:00:00] Okay everyone welcome back to telemedicine Talks. So I am forcing Leo to do this episode. We probably should call us television talks.
'cause today we are talking about a TV show that really actually. Doesn't have too much to do with telemedicine, but gave me a ton of insight into why physicians were so burned out, specifically like emergency medicine doctors and why so many ER doctors have made the leap into telemedicine. Mainly out of like probably their own peace of mind and mental sanity.
So we are gonna be talking about the HBO show, the Pit, where. So many questions. Because I have never been an ER doctor nor worked in an er. Honestly, I've only been to the ER a handful of times in my whole life. And I've watched [00:01:00] the show, it was so great, and for people who haven't watched it, please go watch.
But basically it is about the whole series. I think it's like a 15, 16 part series, but each episode is one hour in the er. It's one whole er shift and you get to see all the craziness, and it made me, I texted you, Leo. It made me so sad watching what our poor emergency rooms go through, the overburden the sick people and really just gave me a ton of insight into.
What I think now it's to be an ER doctor. When you brought up the subject I was like, oh man we're gonna talk about the pit. I think it's a great idea. But there was a little hesitancy because man, it brings up so many feels. Since transitioning from the ER to telemedicine, honestly, I haven't been back in brick and mortar for almost a YA year now.
A year now. And [00:02:00] watching the show brought back the PTSD of working in the er. And yeah, there's just so many feels that came up and maybe a few ugly cries here and there. I think the show did really well in capturing what it was and really just the entirety of the experience of working in the emergency department, not just for doctors, but for nurses, techs, ancillary staff, EMS, so forth and so on.
Now, yeah, there was a little Hollywood in it, when they were able to get a social worker at eight o'clock in the morning at moments notice. I was like, oh, that is not real. Social work doesn't start until 10:00 AM What are you talking about? I have the same thing. I was like, I've never seen a social worker so good.
They came strolling in at 10:00 AM or at the first episode, which was supposed to start at 7:00 AM their time. And I was like, what [00:03:00] kind of social worker? I need that social worker on my staff. Because there's no way, i'm boarding patients until 10:00 AM until social work can sort them out.
But that withstanding no, it was it was a very real portrayal of what goes on the mentality and maybe a slight uptick in more deaths and the gruesomeness of the day-to-day. But if you go to, the big trauma centers. That may be on par. So I know, I remember one of my training locations was in Harborview in Seattle.
It's a hub of a trauma center up in the Pacific Northwest that received traumas from what, four or five different states, something like that. And it was just nonstop and nonstop. Nonstop codes, trauma codes, so forth and so on. So it reminded me of that, but no it, it hit real. And it does relate to telemedicine. It really does. It gives us a better [00:04:00] insight of what you were saying before, why a lot of ER doctors not just ER doctors, but doctors in general are flocking to telemedicine, flocking to something way different. , This is a way different, almost a total 180, , move from what we're used to in brick and mortar ERs. And,, I said it a lot of times when the show was running, told it to my friends family. I was like, Hey, if you wanna get into my head why I act the way I do and.
I approach the things the way I do and why sometimes I feel so, or I approach things so glib and really just cold, especially about medical stuff. Go watch a show. Go watch a show, and you'll get an insight of kind of what's made me kind of me. Yeah. Yeah. .
I guess like from a patient perspective or just a non-physician perspective? I don't think like I've seen one person die in my whole life. And it was like a motorcycle accident that like, just [00:05:00] happened right as I was like driving on the freeway and like literally saw a dead person.
So like one of the things that I thought was like so shocking to me was, as I work with so many physicians, like I've never once thought about that aspect of it, of being in the emergency room. You are, you're seeing the trauma patients, if you're in rural, like a rural place or just a place where you're the only, emergency room.
I, I had dinner with an ER doctor. A couple weeks ago, and it was right when I was like watching the show and like really in it, and I was like how was your shift? And he told me how like there was a car accident and like they, he was, he's the only doctor there, and they head in, head on collision and he got all three patients at the same time.
And one guy had a pipe through his whole leg, and the other guy was really mad. To me, I'm like, I couldn't imagine having to see the trauma every day. And then, again, the main character on the pit. Like you wanna be, you become a doctor to like wanna help as many people.
And like the unfortunate reality is you're [00:06:00] never gonna be able to help everyone or help yourself, right? Yeah. It's tough. It's tough, you're right. 'cause you get in the situations and. You see it, death, right? People passing right in front of you. You call a time of death.
And no matter how many times you do that, this is just me talking, and I could be generalizing, but this is me. But no matter how many times you do that, it's always unsettling, and it's, you tell yourself, Hey, this is part of your job. This is what you do. And yes, people will pass that circle of life.
But it's always unsettling. 'cause you know that this person is somebody's family member, somebody's father, daughter, son, aunt, uncle, that, for most of the parts, mo these people meant something to somebody and they just passed. And, you see their faces, you remember their names, you remember why they passed.
And there really isn't any time [00:07:00] to, to offload that. 'cause in, in a minute or two you're gonna be seeing another patient and that next patient doesn't care that you just had to deal with that. That doesn't care because they're dealing with their own traumatic, traumatic injury or their medical emergency.
They have no, they don't care that's what you just had to go through and. They expect you to be back on your game. And actually the show did a really great job in pointing that out, and one of the, this is spoilers, right? So if you haven't seen it, just go see it. But they do a great job because even after the big culmination when things were dying down and the intern just wanted to offload and just was just zoning out the new attending reminder, it was like, Hey.
Get back on your game because this new patient doesn't care what the hell you just went through the past three, four hours. You're back on a hundred percent. There's no wheeling down, there's no, calming down. And that's tough. That's tough [00:08:00] doing that day in, day out, seven, eight hours straight.
And this, this shift was supposed to be a 12 hour shift, and it was a 15 hour show. So it goes to show you, it's. That's another real part. We're scheduled and usually my skis were scheduled for eight to 10 hours. I was there for 12 to 14 hours a shift, yeah.
And usually three days straight yeah. Yeah, def definitely tiring. Yeah. I also thought it was really interesting, like they layered like the bureaucracy of everything, right? So it's here, there's. Mass trauma and like they're doing everything and do you chart, do you do this, do you do that?
And they basically threw that all out the door for clinical purposes. Yeah. But even at the very end, it was like you the CMOI think, was like not okay with that. Yeah. Which I thought was so interesting. 'cause to me like. Again, from the regulatory side, like I think like we would totally, from my angle be like, oh no, that's totally fine.
Like we, we totally understand like the circumstances, but like the organization I have to assume it's like you, you do all the work and then at the very end, like you still have to [00:09:00] do the paperwork. Yeah. And still follow the rules. That sometimes just completely goes against the clinical aspect, which again, like you guys have to live with.
That, which I thought was also just something interesting. That's a known huge cause of burnout, right? It's the documentation piece. A lot of times where, I'm done with my shift, but not done with documentation that took up another two, three hours. And really, most of the times we all know that.
The doctors all know that we're documenting, not. To document the case or, portray what's happened. A lot of us, most of us, are documenting to hit certain points so we could get paid, it's documentation, not for clinical sake, but really for payment's sake, for reimbursement's sake.
And Yeah, we know that if we don't document, or not even correctly, I don't I hesitate to say document correctly, but if we don't document the way that we are told to document, to hit those points, we're not gonna get paid despite doing the [00:10:00] work that was done, which is very frustrating, right?
It's, gosh, you do all the work, you do this, you do that you're under this emotional, physical stress. And then you're not reimbursed for it because you didn't hit certain specific phrases in your note, which Yeah that's demoralizing, right? It's demoralizing. Yeah. Yeah, it's tough.
I think it was like an internal like joke, which I also I actually understood and thought was really funny is they kept talking about patient satisfaction scores. Absolutely. Because again like from my angle, like those are things that we actually do look at, it really does determine like what, you know what hospitals like, how you're able to like Reem, get reimbursement rates. Yeah. So to me, I did think it was really funny that they kept talking about it, and at the end of the day, it's oh, again oh my gosh. Like these poor doctors where it's you expect them to be chipper and happy and friendly and spend all the time, but they're hopping from patient to patient.
And again I Think like every single time I went [00:11:00] to an emergency room. Which honestly, like in my adult life has all been for my kids. It was always crazy. There wasn't I've been in the emergency room in the middle of the night and the day, like it's always crazy. So it's not a traditional oh, maybe there's gonna be some downtime.
You'll always be in the chaos, right? Yeah. Yeah. And that's in a busy er, even in a not so busy er. Let's say, there's no patients coming or you do have downtime, God forbid you say the Q word, the quiet word in the er, right? But you're always on edge, right?
You're always ready for that train wreck, literally to come in, right? You have you, you can't keep your guard down because yeah. What if that critical patient comes in and you. There's no time to get ramped up. There's no time to, get yourself psyched up. You have to be on point immediately. And so there's always this sense of urgency, even if at that one point in time it's not that urgent, right?
It's you're always in the fight or flight. You're in the fight or [00:12:00] flight for 7, 8, 10, 12 hours straight. Even critical access ERs where you know, you do have downtime and you sleep. You're not really that restful, right? You're just waiting for the next thing to come in. And Yeah, it's just always at, and I think the show made another good point where you're always thinking about the worst case scenario. That's just what you do, right? What could kill you. Like that one abdominal pain patient that turned out to be a stemi, right? What is the worst case scenario, right? Yeah you're always on high alert.
Yeah. Yeah. Usually fueled by caffeine and monster, that's just, that's how I went through it. But yeah, it sucks. No, I thought also too like shifting a little bit, like one thing that I thought was really interesting, just because I have zero understanding of how this works today, and like I'm just gonna plead to ignorance.
The whole like intern versus resident versus attending like dynamic and hierarchy and what that means. And I thought it was really [00:13:00] funny or not. Okay. Not funny. That was really interesting. Like you had the interns, right? Like I'm learning like this is new. Like I want to do that crazy thing.
This is so cool. And then you have the attendings that are like, oh, like this is great 'cause it's your first day, but it gets old kind of fast. And so I thought one, was that how your experience was? Oh, absolutely. Oh, absolutely. It's it's good you made that point.
'Cause they did a really good point in showing the interplay between the different levels of training and really between the different personalities that you find in training too. It was, there, there was some generalization there, but they made a really good point. Yeah. Because, they saw the med students, you had the med students, then you had the turns, then you had the senior residents and you had the attendings.
And, you have the medical students, interns that were bright-eyed, bushy tailed, super excited, wanna get everything done, let me get into it until, they reach the resin stage and there's. I did two residencies, [00:14:00] so I had to go through that twice. The second time around I wasn't a bright-eyed bushy-tailed intern.
I, I knew it was going on and yeah, I saw the new bright-eyed, bushy-tailed fellow interns on my second residency. I was like, oh man, here we go. You guys are super excited now. And there's, and it took different people different times to, get that nice little salt crest on them. We eventually do.
And that's what you saw with a residents, they were salty, they were, pessimistic and they yeah. There was a little spice to 'em. And there's a little edge to them. A little bit more than others. And I think they also did a good job into delving into, the more kind of the behavioral health kind of version of that, where that one resident, was addicted to things and really couldn't accept the fact and, was just, blaming it on other things, and we've seen a lot of that, especially recently. There's strings that we see, strings of, suicides and self harms in, in residents because of that.
And it's, it's. [00:15:00] Gosh, I don't even wanna say it's part of the process, but it's there. A lot of it, it's just a lot of stress. All at once, regardless of what specialty you're in. But definitely emergency medicine 'cause you're always on top of things. Stress is, yeah.
I, I just don't know how like an ER doctor even prepares, it's like drowning versus this versus, I don't know. The one thing I understand is if I ever go to the er, like I'm definitely getting intubated. 'cause it seems like they intubate everybody. If you talk to the residents, so we want to innovate you.
Here we go. It's a procedure that we could chalk up, just show me your hypoxic or show me that your respiratory distress. Man, I have that seven five tube in my back pocket and ready to go. We'll just stick that in there. I was like, we're like, every other word is we're intubating. I was like, ah.
Another one. Actually, in reality, most of us try not to, but it's gonna happen when it has to happen. But no. Yeah it's hard. We joke, right? We know as er doctors, we know. A lot or we know a little about a lot, right? And you just have to again, prepare for the worst. [00:16:00] There there are some smart, really smart er doctors out there that know everything about everything.
That definitely was not me. I knew when to get really worried. I know I knew the approaches. I knew where to find information. And really I. I knew the asystolic pathway. 'cause really that's only CEPR pathway. You need to know. 'cause it all eventually leads there. But no really, actually no, for the record, I knew all of them, but no it's, I think it's just really knowing your capabilities and you know your limitations and knowing how to navigate those because different people are different.
Yeah, but no it, it definitely showcased that too because, you had that one star intern that was awesome, and maybe too awesome for her own good, but but yeah it definitely showed the interplay between that. Yeah. Yeah. And I think like one thing that I was caught off like.
Caught a little off guard just based on like conversations with like current er doctors [00:17:00] today was it seemed like the attending physician was like, super supportive and I'm really gonna guide you and help you and it's okay. Everything's okay. And I've actually heard that attendings are very brutal.
And not as, like I've heard that kind of going through that process was almost traumatic, a little bit. And so the show really depicted like I think how it's supposed to work in theory. But I wasn't sure if that actually happens in most people's experience. It can be. It can be. The main protagonist of the show was very fatherly, was very nurturing.
And, going through my trainings there, there was some that were like that absolutely. That some were just bred to be teaching doctors. And there were some attendings that. Weren't really meant to be around other people and they showed you that they weren't really meant to be other people.
Definitely the total opposite. But there's also [00:18:00] different kind of styles that people taught. Honestly, one of my favorite attendings going through er residency was super brutal to the point where you knew that you knew what you were gonna get and you knew that he was gonna be brutal. But because it was for our own good, and really once you chipped away at that kind of brutal crust, he was actually a teddy bear. But it took two and a half years until my senior year to get there and to get on his good side. But no, I appreciated it. But you're right. Yeah, there are definitely horror stories of attendings just tearing you down, tearing you up.
That senior resident who had it out for that one other intern, just no matter what she did, it's just tearing her down. I've seen that I've seen residents, just break down, cry, quit, you name it, because of, a certain interaction with a not so awesome teacher.
Yeah. What do you think was the most exaggerated like called BS on the show? What's the one thing that you could be like, [00:19:00] oh, it's hard. It's hard because other than Scrubs, everybody knows what Scrubs is, right? The show this, and actually it's on par, I think with Scrubs. That, that, this was very spot on the reality of the show.
Now again, we talked about kind of the Hollywood of. Yeah, social work was there and support, that ancillary support was there. I think a little bit more available than reality. Again, maybe you know, the back to back to back gruesome kind of stuff and critical stuff.
Slightly exaggerated. Maybe. Maybe. Honestly, there's times where I was running three codes and I was standing in the middle of the ER just directing three teams going at it. But no it's hard 'cause there isn't one big thing that I could say. This is super exaggerated. Even the culmination of the show, I could see that happening.
I could see that happening. That's exactly how's happened. I think well, okay, one thing, like that super intern that was doing those awesome procedures, that's, [00:20:00] I don't know if any intern would do that, right? Yeah. Putting putting in a Rob oa, the intern doing that I don't know maybe that was exaggerated.
That was cool though. But that was maybe exaggerated. But all in all, I think it's a pretty decent job of portraying that. It's just, it was just really super real to me. And really it brought back the sight sound sense. I could smell the drunk guys in the show.
You know what I mean? I was like, I know that smell right? I know that smell of drunk. And I felt it. I felt it. And there's times I found myself mumbling to myself, oh, this is what it is, blah, blah, blah. And then they repeat the same terminology, right? Like the whole tombstone thing. I was like, oh, that's just tombstones.
And the characters were like, oh, this is called a tombstone. I was like, oh, I am smart. You know what I mean? Or yeah, the the hair tourniquet on the baby. I was like, oh, that's a hair tourniquet. And they're like, oh, that's a hair tour. I was like, oh, there you go. And even more the real spot on stuff.
Was, the deaths and the parents wailing, you could hear [00:21:00] the wailing throughout the er. Yeah that's one thing you can't forget or, when they had to go in and collect themselves before giving bad news I could feel that, I could feel the heaviness in that, and it just reminded me of that.
And it's not the fun part of the job, so yeah, no it's really hard to knock whoever the producers, whatnot. They did the research and I think they did it really well. Yeah. No, it was really good. Really good. And I think too again, from somebody who like, understands enough about how it works, like it really did give me a very different perspective of.
You, Leo, to be honest like I told you, like I texted you and I like, I'm so sorry. You have to go through all this. Oh my God. Because to me it even made me emotional probably just because I work with so many emergency room doctors where it's I can't know. I can't know your trauma.
I can't know what you've seen or what you have to [00:22:00] like, feel in your heart, again, like having to become a doctor. It's, there's a reason that doctors get paid a lot of money and it's, you guys have to live, day in and day out with all the things that you guys see. And to me it just, it made me respect you all even more than I already did, of course.
But it really just made me like, really take a different, like different side a different view. Of, how much I respect what you all do every day. And it's, and again, like I, the biggest thing, the first thing is I'm watching this and it's I texted a bunch of ER doctors and I'm all how, like how real is the show?
And all of them were like, it's pretty spot on. Yeah. Like it's pretty spot on. Very similar to what you said, which is there's some Hollywood stuff, but for the most part, if you're in a busy trauma center, like you're seeing stuff like that almost every single shift and yeah. You're burning out and you're wanting to it doesn't seem like it's a sustainable thing to do.
[00:23:00] No. It's not sustainable. And, looping this back into telemedicine talks, this is an important point to hear, talking about ER doctors. Comparing the life expectancy of regular people, doctors, and then ER doctors, right? The average life expectancy of ER doctors around is around 57 or 58 years old.
Freaking ridiculous. 57 or 58. I'm an old man. For me, that's in 10 years from now. Looking at it, looking at my kids' ages, I. That doesn't get me past high school. What the hell? How are we expected to sustain this? This is not acceptable, for er doctors.
Not just talk about burnout. This is life expectancy. We burn out way before that, we joke, 10 years is the. Is really the average time, and this is just me being arbitrary, like a lot of us think, okay, 10 years I'm gonna be doing something else, right?
Because we're burned. [00:24:00] Because, inside we're beat up. Just the protagonist show, he just broke down, he couldn't, it's hard to keep all that in without letting it all out and. Being expected not to let it out, right? This is why you see a lot of ER doctors, a lot of doctors, but especially er doctors, flock to telemedicine, right?
Once I switch to telemedicine one, working day in, day out, three days straight, and you may think, oh, you only work three nights, you got that buildup. Then you got, the day before then you got two days where you had to decompress. I was a zombie five days, six days out of the week.
I was a very angry zombie sometimes too, and the kids felt it. And now, I work kind of the same hours, but I'm there for the kids. I'm watching their practices. I'm not a zombie, I'm not angry a lot of times. And it's just, why not, it just makes sense to move on, I, and. I joke around that I'm making the same or maybe even more with less poop [00:25:00] thrown at my face.
Literally, that happened every freaking shift, it's like I was, that's what the show missed. Was there anybody, somebody got peed on in the show. Somebody got peed on. Yeah. Yeah, that's real. I don't think there was poop. I don't think there was poop. No, but I trust you, right? Yeah, definitely. It's way better hours, way better pay, way less poop.
Who wouldn't wanna switch from ER to telemedicine, right? And you still have those docs that are like, oh, I wanna make a difference, I wanna save lives. And you could argue that 80, 90% of the time in the er you're not really saving lives, right? Really just dodging all the other literally crap that's out there.
And really I found fulfillment in doing telemedicine stuff, right? And there's, being a leader and serving underserved populations and reaching out to people that may not have been reached, that comes with its own sense of fulfillment. Yeah. Yeah, no it definitely it definitely connects to and a [00:26:00] huge explanation of why you're seeing basically a diaspora of.
Er doctors, especially in, in my range around the, the 10, 15 year range, but also the younger range too, where they see, two, five years into it, they're like, oh man this is not sustainable. Yeah. I also think i, again, I've said this a thousand times, like I think it's, it has to be really hard to decide that you want to be a physician.
My grandma always wanted me to be a doctor, ever since I was little, and it was like, it just wasn't there for me. I can't imagine, you pick this profession you say you want to, do this for the rest of your life, and then you get to a point where you're. You're just feeling burnt out and as an ER doctor, there aren't really op, like your job is to be in the emergency room and to deal with these things.
Yeah. Every single day. And I think it's, again, going back to the show, I think it makes a ton of sense when you see the excitement and [00:27:00] the validation and just how like the interns and even , some, some of the residents were, like I understand it. But I have to assume like you don't really have an opportunity to exit because then you'd have to exit your career as a physician.
Yeah, and I think I've said it a few times where I do think telemedicine gives, physicians a way to redefine their identity a little bit. Where it's yes, yes, I get it. I signed up for this thing and I still wanna do clinical work, but maybe I don't wanna open my own practice, or maybe I don't wanna do this or that, but like it gives you an option to keep that identity a bit without all the extra baggage.
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, it does. Because, before telemedicine came into my life, it was just, that was it. Because it was either all or nothing. I was. Gonna work in the ER until I was 65 if I made it that long. It's eight years past a life expectancy, a regular ER [00:28:00] doctor.
And just go until then and then, take my retirement and, live the rest of whatever I have left. Years. Years. Oh, I know. I've, shoot, I'm already plus eight years at that point. So I'm beating the game. Yeah. It's sad. That, that's the whole thing.
I think it, it makes me. Again, I think I shared this on a podcast, but I was talking about just one physician, all the physicians I work with and how everybody's burnt out and, just I was talking about it with my dad. Yeah. And my dad's oh, but they're doctors.
And like you could, there's like a stigma where it's like your doctors, you're on this like different level. And it's to me, I was like no, it makes so much sense to me. Like you're, yes you're doctors. You have spent so much time, effort, energy, money, training to do this thing, and then it burns you out and you're like, what the hell am I gonna do next?
So to me it makes total sense on I get it. I totally understand. I understand and I don't understand because I, I haven't done or seen the things that you all have, but. Again, it's I think that's [00:29:00] where again, just telemedicine does give a little optionality there for doctors.
It does. And it's, being in this telemedicine community right now and having the opportunity to see the transformation of a lot of ER doctors into something new into something that they're actually proud of. Being and proud of doing. And it's a whole mindset re reset basically.
And sometimes that's hard for people because you're right, their whole definition of who they are, through internship, through residency, through their attending years was just that. So it's a huge step and a huge speed bump into moving forward. But, it's nice to see that telemedicine has afforded a lot of ER doctors that opportunity and just to be happy, just to be free .
Agreed. Agreed. Yeah. If we haven't spoiled the show for you already, definitely go watch a show. I love [00:30:00] it. Definitely we want what are your biggest BS on the show, right? Absolutely. That's what I wanna know. Tell me your experiences. 'cause I would, as somebody who, again, has never done this stuff, but works with doctors, I just, it was fascinating to me how eye-opening it was because I just don't have the lived experience.
Yeah. Tell I, I wanna hear about y'all's experience. Jump online, jump on Instagram, when this comes out, drop a comment. Call me out, say, Leo. You're all bs, this is, don't feel that No wonder you're in telemedicine. Get out of the er. Or, hey, no, I totally feel you.
Share some of your stories, share some of your thoughts. Not just the show, but, just thoughts on kind of the whole topic on how, we have to deal with this. Yeah, we'd love to hear your thoughts, your feelings. Don't be stranger. Drop us a line and thanks for listening.
Thanks for listening to television talks today. That's right. All right. Until then we'll see you later. Aloha.